Rhonda begins with a plug for David’s new book, Feeling Great, which will be released on Amazon, on September 15, the day after after this podcast will be published. You can check it out at the link at the bottom of today’s show notes.
Today and next week you will hear parts 1 and 2 of a live therapy session I (David) did with Neil Sattin, host of his own terrific “Relationship Alive” podcast, which has received 5 million downloads. But as you know, we all sometimes need a little mental tune-up, including therapists. The session you are about to hear occurred on March 23, 2020, when the pandemic shut-down first occurred.
Rhonda begins today’s podcast with a moving email from a fan who heard Neil’s live therapy session with David on Neil’s Relationship Alive podcast. Then Neil explains how his work on troubled relationships were born out of his work as a dog trainer, and he saw many similarities with relationship issues! In addition to hosting his popular podcast, Nel does coaching for individuals and troubled couples.
Neil explains that, “I’ve always been a person who people have turned to for relationship help. I saw the struggles my parents experienced, and I have experienced my own struggles, and I wanted to figure out how we might use struggles to deepen and improve relationships, so people can thrive and get past those challenging moments.
Prior to his personal work with David, Neil sought help from a cognitive therapist, but it wasn’t helpful thought. Neil thought it was too formulaic, a sentiment that David agrees with. Neil prefers working “in the moment,” the way David does therapy.
Today, you will hear the T = Testing and E = Empathy portions of Neil’s TEAM therapy session with David, and next week you will hear the A = Assessment of Resistance and M = Methods portions.
You can check out the Daily Mood Log that David and Neil filled out at the beginning of session. As you can see, the upsetting event was simply feeling like he hadn’t gotten enough done when evening approached. Perhaps you’ve sometimes felt like that, too!
You can also see that Neil had many negative feelings. Most were intense and Neil felt overwhelmed. He was telling himself there was way too much to do, that he was incapable of getting organized, and that he was going to end up unhealthy, weak and broke. These were messages he’d heard from his dad when he was growing up: “You’ve gotta clean your room… You’ll never succeed.”
Tearfully, Neil says, “I’ve always wanted his blessing… but I’ve never gotten it. I wish he could see my role in the world, the impact I’ve been making, and I wish he would admire it! … I love him dearly, but there are things I just don’t understand, things that have been the sources of my sadness and anger ”
Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion of the session!
Rhonda and David
Transcript
0:00 · [Music] hello and welcome to the feeling good podcast where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel i am your host ronda barrowski and joining me here in the murrieta studio is dr david burns dr david burns is a
David Burns
0:23 · pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new teen therapy he is the author of feeling good which has sold over 5 million copies in the united states and has been translated into over 30 languages david is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at stanford university school of medicine [Music] i don’t know why i start every time you say it it’s so funny um welcome hi david and um welcome
0:56 · listeners to episode 208 we have a really exciting special guest and i’ll let david introduce him well i’m thrilled that neil santon is joining us he’s a dear colleague and a tremendous individual i first met neil when he invited me to be on his own fabulous
1:23 · podcast and and that led to a couple more interviews on his on his podcast which deals with the relationship issues and i’m sure would be a great interest to many of you will give you the name of his podcast and i’ll put a link in the in the show notes as well and uh neil was also helpful to me
1:48 · not only in giving me the chance to appear on his his podcast but giving some tips on how to to grow my audience uh through syndicating of the podcast and things that have had a huge and greatly but much appreciated impact
2:06 · i wanted to mention two before we we dive in to neil well and then i had the great opportunity to do some personal work with neil uh a number of months ago which was just a wonderful wonderful experience and we’re going to play uh part one of that personal work today and part one of it part two of that personal work next week
2:31 · uh but uh before we we dive in uh we’d like to to read a little endorsement of of that personal work which appeared on your podcast neil and rhonda’s going to read a fabulous note from one of your fans right after he listened to or she to to the personal work we did yeah but i i we’re we’re just not so
3:00 · organized in our delivery of this podcast i also want to say that today this podcast is being um sent out on september 14th and there’s a very exciting thing happening tomorrow what is that david well so tomorrow yeah the release of my new book feeling great yeah it’s been a pre-sale on on amazon
3:24 · for for a month or two but you can actually buy it and and have it delivered tomorrow and if you uh are so inclined and order it this will certainly help it with the with the rankings which are important when the when the book is first released and i won’t talk too much about it except it’s a little bit like my first book feeling great it has all of the wonderful cognitive therapy techniques that were in that book but they’ve been updated over the last 40 years since that book came out and
3:57 · then we’ve got all these tremendous new techniques having to do with therapeutic resistance and motivate and motivation that have made ultra rapid recovery possible for the first time so if you’re a therapist wanting to learn about the new techniques the new book feeling great might be up your alley or if you’re just a a citizen wanting to tune up your your your emotional life and experience greater joy it could be a good thing or if you’re a patient in therapy it would will hopefully accelerate your
4:29 · your recovery yay i’m excited i’m excited too yeah i ordered it so i’m i’m excited to get it okay so this is a an endorsement that someone sent you right neal she’s it was from luna i edited it just a little um so if she’s listening to this podcast you won’t hear it exactly like what she wrote it but she has listened to your personal word with david and this is what she wrote um the day went by and i thought nothing
4:57 · more of it until i tuned into the episode tonight and heard neil with david talking about needing to become more organized it was like the universe had spoken to me i started my morning with the thoughts of i’m just longing for a partner who needs someone to organize them because although i’m an okay partner i’m a brilliant organizer
5:16 · if only there was someone out there who would value my amazing organization skills but accept my mediocre emotional regulation skills to be in a relationship with me then i’d be in luck that was it after i listened to neil’s podcast i thought neil’s my man it’s a shame he’s halfway across the world listening with intrigue my mind was blown by the learnings both in neil’s vulnerability and in david’s valuable techniques
5:43 · listening to neil explain his negative beliefs and the journey he takes regularly made me feel closer to him and to everyone in general really it lifted the dark cloak of loneliness i’d had weighing me down recently thank you neil and david not only was i again reminded that there is hope in finding a partner with similar values but for the connection you offered me and the rest of your audience through your being so vulnerable thanks
6:11 · luna what a beautiful what a beautiful note let’s get to know a little bit about neil and then we’ll dive right into the uh the work that we did tell us a little bit about yourself uh how you got into the podcast business what what you do you know in addition to your your podcasting and uh you know come to life yeah um the podcast was in many respects born
6:41 · in two places it was born out of work that at the time i was doing with people and their dogs actually i was i was a dog trainer and uh um i often found that the
6:56 · problems that people were having with their dogs were only addressable if i helped the people deal with the stress that was happening in their personal lives and their emotional lives and so frequently someone’s relationship is
7:11 · is a huge source of of stress or stress in their household so um that drew me to explore more what was required to have better relationships and and solve relationship problems um and then i’ve always been someone
7:28 · that people have turned to to talk about relationships for whatever reason i mean that’s a thread that’s existed through my whole life and and and i also have seen a lot of struggle in my parents relationship and other people’s parents relationships and then ultimately in my own relationships and wondering um really wondering what
7:53 · does it take to get past the struggle or when you get to those struggle those moments of struggle how do you how do you get past it in a way that actually makes your relationship stronger and prior to starting the podcast i really had not figured that out
8:12 · i’m not even sure now that i’ve figured it out honestly but i i have had a lot of great conversations with um amazing people like yourself david um also other you know luminaries in the field the the gottmans john and julie have been on my show a number of times peter levine has been on talking about healing trauma sue johnson talking about emotionally focused couples therapy and attachment um so i’ve
8:40 · really it’s been important to me to to look at the the question of how to do relationship well and how to thrive and how to get past challenging moments from as many angles as possible both in terms of inner work that we can do to show up with more health and availability availability and vulnerability and then also the relational work the the ways that we learn to either do or not do things that get in the way of healthy relating
9:14 · so those are the things that motivate me and what brought me into the podcast i do do coaching work with people so i work with couples and individuals as a coach and then i have an online course that’s all focused on relationship communication and improving relationship communication those are my big things right now along with a along with a podcast um yeah and uh and i’m always learning growing and and trying to find new ways to tackle
9:43 · the same subject we’ll have two questions and rhonda may have a couple too before we dive in here but first it sounds like you haven’t had formal training as a clinical psychologist or something it might have been self-taught to a certain degree and and the reason i i raised that there’s no doubt that you’re tremendously knowledgeable and and effective at what you do in my
10:09 · training group at stanford we we bring in community therapists and give them free training every week and uh and the training i’ve done in general the people who many of the ones who become the most amazing therapists are the ones who who had no background so they they were just open to to learning the the things that that we were teaching and and sometimes the ones who have had
10:38 · extensive uh you know training and psychodynamic therapy or this or that or the other it’s very difficult to more difficult to to teach them because they they think they know something
10:54 · i’m feeling i’m feeling encouraged by hearing that and uh i’ve definitely been open to not knowing and and at the same time looking for kind of the best like what what really works in this moment what would really serve the person before me um but you’re right i haven’t uh i also have not had formal training um i don’t have my doctorate um i have had um a number of coach
11:21 · training programs that i’ve gone through that have been really helpful in learning that modality of working with people um and when i was an undergrad actually i had a mentor who was a gestalt psychologist and i learned how to facilitate encounter groups so i was i was doing encounter group facilitation you know in my early 20s um with uh with this mentor and uh
11:49 · that is that and and the a lot of what i do and have done since um is born out of those those moments oh yeah i did quite a bit of that when i was a medical student i was cutting medical school classes because i just wasn’t fit for medical school but i went to a
12:07 · lot of psychodrama marathons and encounter groups and it was very very amazing and exciting i learned a lot from that as well much more than what i would have learned in medical school that i attended classes more regularly because it was real people changing often dramatically be
12:28 · before your eyes and uh it was scary though at times yeah there’s a lot of what questions you i was just going to say there’s a lot of power in learning just how to really show up in the moment and that’s what i think yeah is was so powerful about the work that we did together in the session that that everyone will be hearing is um how you show up
12:54 · in the moment without hesitation um and uh there there’s such a gift i think in um accepting what is happening right then and there and working with it right yeah right i
13:10 · just wanted to know neil did you have any um experience with team therapy before you started working with david uh no before no none at all other than reading david’s work um and the conversations that he and i have had um where we’ve talked about it some but i don’t know i’ve never worked with a team therapist or anything like that um i think we’ll probably feel your
13:34 · your answer to this question and as we’re listening to the podcast but what could you like what was your overall impression when it was when you were finished working with like while you were working with david when you were finished um well overall i i’ve i’ve found the work to be super powerful for me and i have had experience in the
13:59 · past working with a therapist who used cbt cognitive behavioral therapy and i didn’t really find that to be terribly effective the way that that person was you know showed up with that model and so in some respects i’ve actually been david you might be kind of shocked to hear this but i’ve been kind of anti-cbt in a lot of ways i am okay great
14:27 · and um and so there’s something about kind of the formulaic nature that i think is is really it challenges me in in that like desire to be real in the moment and like to be forced into a structure is challenging yeah so um what i loved
14:46 · about the teamwork was haha i didn’t really intend to say it but what i loved about it was um that despite knowing that there was a formula there in order of operations so to speak and what we were doing it didn’t ever feel formulaic to me
15:08 · and and it did feel like it um you know so much was just about um david and i getting real with each other um right there and you know using the methodology um
15:27 · but letting letting the methodology be something that um that guided us versus something that we had to conform to that’s what it felt like to me anyway um and we’re dealing with some pretty strong feelings of overwhelm um that were plaguing me we did this um
15:44 · session right after all the lockdowns for the um kovid 19 pandemic started so i think it was around march 23rd that we had our session and i was super overwhelmed just with everything going on and um despite not having really any reduction in the number of things going on in my life um since then i would say that that
16:07 · feeling of overwhelm and being paralyzed like that that hasn’t really returned in the moments that it has i’ve been able to pretty quickly call upon the conversation that david and i had as a way of um helping kind of snap me out of it so
16:22 · that was my second question since the end of the the work that you guys did together have you had long lasting results of that and you just answered that yes you had yeah absolutely absolutely i’m not sure i can say the same is true for the procrastination session that we did sorry david but but um that
16:42 · actually has been a lot better impacted um it was impacted by the overwhelm session because um [Music] and i can’t remember if we i think we did talk about this the way that shame kind of factors in to the equation and i think for me around procrastination like shame can be one of the worst parts right as like that the feeling of not doing what what i know i ought to be doing um and that being said
17:12 · i’ve been able to procrastinate with much less i’m actually i think there hasn’t really been any shame at all about it um so uh so in many respects i i wouldn’t even frame the problem of procrastination the same way that i was feeling it back when we did that session without the shame procrastination can be a joyous thing i i try to spend at least three to five hours every day for prospecting well i’m right there with you [Laughter]
17:43 · too bad we’re in different time zones we could procrastinate together yeah right absolutely what just one i think one quick question before we dive in here again repeat the name of your podcast we’ll put the link in the show notes because i think a lot of people may want to listen in because you’re doing you know fantastic stuff and if people are struggling with relationship problems this might be right up your eyes sure my podcast is called relationship alive and we’ve had
18:13 · also 200 something episodes i don’t remember exactly which one we’re on now um and over five million downloads and um it’s it’s been a labor of love about love for quite some time now that’s fantastic so relationship a lot okay so relationship or ships
18:36 · ship relationship alive okay great well we’re going to dive in now and hope you enjoy it we’ll play the first half of the session and then next week we’ll play the exciting conclusion so thanks again for joining us uh neil sure and i’m really excited everyone’s going to be getting to hear the work that we did together okay tell me uh how you’ve been feeling
19:06 · so i i was i’ve been noticing that i’ve been feeling i would characterize it as feeling overwhelmed that there there are too many things to to organize and um and there’s even a little bit more chaos in my life now with um you know being confined more or less
19:31 · to my home and having responsibility to homeschool my children and um and on top of that i there are a lot of projects that i’m trying to manage and those could be you know in my business and you know the podcast and all that or they could be like personal projects like organizing my home or making sure i stay
19:54 · well nourished and get enough exercise and and so lately i’ve been noticing that it just feels like like the volume has has become really loud and um
20:15 · i i would say that i’ve never been necessarily the most organized person from like if you had the perspective of organization meaning like everything is everything is neat and tidy and you have your days planned out exactly how they’re gonna go like that’s not me that or my approach to organization it’s been generally a little bit more organic in how it unfolds and that can work up to a certain level
20:43 · of complexity but once things start to get more complex i’ve been especially with you know the the state of the world over the past few weeks i’ve been just noticing that um i want to shut down instead of feeling like i’m really rising to that complexity with with more um more resourcefulness
21:09 · um yeah let me before we go on let me see if i got it right because it sounds like what i was telling you i’ve been confronting oh yeah recently yeah that you’re you’ve been feeling overwhelmed uh because you’re just getting too many things that have have to be organized and uh and and now that you’re confined
21:36 · to home we’ve got you’ve got homeschooling which takes a lot of energy and effort and and personal projects and business projects many of which are probably fun and exciting uh but it just feels like the volume has become loud you’re there’s there’s too much stuff happening and then on top of that you’re you’re feeling like you’re not organized that you don’t work
22:08 · in that kind of obsessive manner but at an intuitive organic manner just just like today for for example i i and i do the same thing like i was i’m supposed to work on my app with some colleagues i tell them i’ve got something really great going on here with with neil and but i’ll pick up with you later in the day but that you know and and so i i don’t like to have a schedule i like to work intuitively in my office i have things piled up all over in here out of view of the camera right
22:39 · now yeah i could i could i could show you uh you know stacks this high on my on my desk that stuff but it’s it’s it’s quasi organized but it i let it get disorganized and then once a week i try to force myself to file things and then i i feel much much better but i like to make things happen and just set things down you know when i’m done with with them and it sounds like little of that is happening to you you you like things to unfold organically
23:10 · and then when there’s too much and everything gets complex and it is too demanding to keep up on top of all of these multiple things happening at the same time you you feel like like you want to like you you just want to maybe shut down and escape and maybe a little like myself sometimes i think gee i mean do i need an app do do i need you know another fantastic podcast or good podcast or whatever in the little misty or feral cat we adopted she’ll
23:42 · swing by and rub up against my legs and give me a meow saying you know time for some candy or some lovey’s do you have some time daddy and uh and i find myself uh feeling feeling really torn and wanting to to spend more time on some things of that level did i did i get it right so far yeah yeah definitely and um
24:07 · right down to the like it it ends up feeling a little bit like procrastination or um you know the here’s an example and this is just one of of many things um i did two live events
24:22 · last year that i mentioned to you one terry reel came here to portland maine and the other john and julie gottman came here and both of them i filmed and i’ve been wanting to get the films the videos edited and out the door so that people can see them and and honestly that could be a source of revenue for me to make up for the cost of filming both of those things yeah and um and the the gottman event i mean that’s
24:56 · two two and a half hours so really all i’ve needed to do is take two and a half or three hours and sit down and watch it and and come up with some notes and send them to my video guy and i’ve had that sitting on my desk so to speak my virtual desk since
25:17 · october when the event happened and obviously i’ve had three hours but i can think of a million other things i’ve done with my three hours um and that and i think when when the volume increases like i was talking about then um so does the visibility of
25:36 · all the things that aren’t getting done like i start and then it becomes really hard to prioritize because each thing calls loudly to me oh there’s this thing you haven’t done that you could have done three months ago and then there’s this other thing and for me i end up just doing you know what i need to do so every week i need to create a podcast um that’s important to me and i’ve managed to do that more or less except for you know in the depths of
26:06 · when my marriage was ending i i had to i had to stop for a minute or two there but for the most part like i’m getting that done um but all the ways that i want to grow my practice and my work and just myself as a human i end up feeling like i’m falling short
26:30 · um right um i’m sorry to hear about your your your marriage ending uh i can imagine that was a source of angst and yeah and and stress uh but you’re you’re you’re saying that in a way it you you feel like you’re procrastinating but what the the what the issue is is that you have all these creative things that you could do like listen to the the gauntlet event
27:01 · up in maine so that you could think about how to edit it and maybe market it get some some extra revenue could could be exciting generate interest among your fans generate more more fans but there’s so many of these
27:21 · maybe cool exciting things that you could be doing you’re noticing all these things that that you could be doing there that you say they they shout out to you they’re they’re all you know worthwhile and and interesting
27:37 · but you find that you have to take what energy you have you know just to do the things you you have to do like doing doing the essentials doing doing a podcast every week and that these you’re not feeling the motivation to or maybe even having the time and resources to to do you know probably a significant
28:01 · list of of really cool things that you could be doing probably most of which would be you know reasonably successful if not tremendously successful yeah i mean that’s the that’s the dream is that each of those things they they come with the allure of the impact that it could make or um
28:29 · you know i i think when i look at everything that i’m doing i mean i used the word organic earlier and my life has kind of evolved organically um in a way that generally i look at and i think wow this is beautiful and and like i look back at
28:48 · everything that’s come together and woven its way together to create what’s what happens now you know i worked in technology for a long long time and so much of what i do now would have been a lot more challenging if i didn’t have that background and
29:06 · and i can also look at each of these ideas and think like wow that could be amazing or that could be a piece of this puzzle and and i s and the puzzle starts to take shape in front of me and that gets exciting um and i have an idea let’s not work together on any project because that’s what’s happening to me too and these things expand exponentially
29:32 · like all of your skills start coming together and then you start thinking wow i could do this and i could do that and i and i could do this and i could do that i you know what what you’re saying is uh that there there’s an allure a dream uh and that your life has evolved organically and is kind of coming to fruition on many different levels and the things that you worked hard to learn are now available to to be you know
30:00 · creating things that would would just have a a tremendous beneficial impact on others and and benefits benefits for yourself but maybe you’re saying oh my gosh you know do i really want to have to do all of that right now um right there’s there’s some well you know what the the voice that actually that i hear is something like um
30:30 · i’ve never like i’ve never been able to be that organized and so so it’s like i don’t i’m not sure i can so it’s it’s almost like the like there’s that hesitation
30:54 · yeah i’m trying to think of what the image is that’s like coming to me but it’s like you know there are any number of starting gates like there’s the starting gate of finishing the the projects or this there’s the starting gate of like let’s just create a meal plan so that i’m a little i feel a little bit more organized around my nutrition and nourishment um any one of those starting gates
31:20 · like i’m sort of i find myself caught a moment before that where i’m like wow i could go that way i could go that way and even when i step up to one i’m often hearing the call of the others you you talked about the magic button earlier in our conversation and for me the the magic button would be like the elf that somehow knows exactly where
31:44 · this is all going and just shows up every day with my daily agenda and says you just do these things and trust me and it’s all gonna work out just fine and and all i would have to do is those things and and everything that i wanted to get done would happen and the structure to support my personal wellness as
32:06 · well as the wellness of my clients and listeners and the wellness of my business and my children and like all like that would just ripple out just from taking those actions and what’s funny is that i know like that it all boils down to what you do in any given moment like that’s what life is life is like how you
32:29 · what you do in this moment and then in the next moment um sometimes that just feels like the biggest hurdle to me and it it matters more now than ever because of that additional chaos that’s that’s in the system
32:48 · yeah uh so in in in an ideal world that you’re you’re having a little elf bring you a do list every day and the elf has figured out what are the essentials and the order in which to do them in order to to fit everything in and then it’s all going to kind of ripple out and all these wonderful things are going to happen but then you’re saying life life
33:13 · is a series of moments and it’s kind of hard for you to you know get on board and and feel motivated to to tackle all these things because once you think of well let’s work on the the uh you know starting gate for let’s create an eating plan and uh and
33:31 · and then once you think about stepping up and working on that you start hearing the call of all these other things that that you should should be doing and maybe uh end up feeling or getting a bit a bit paralyzed can can i suggest we’ve
33:48 · switched just temporarily to to the daily mood log uh do you have one there and at the top it says upsetting event and that could just just be like it could be this morning or right now or you know yeah i mean i would for an upsetting event let’s just say an upsetting event would be a day that’s gone by where i didn’t
The Daily Mood Log
34:11 · where i feel like i didn’t get enough done okay okay so is that right now feeling like yesterday you didn’t get enough done sure okay so put that on the upsetting of event day when i i i i didn’t
34:27 · i didn’t get enough done yeah you just write that down yeah i’m actually done already i i didn’t yet but i’m opening this in a little pdf editor thing so that i can i’m editing right on the document so okay great yeah and then you you see that so that’s the upsetting event that now we want to see what your emotions are and the first category is sad blue depressed down unhappy are you feeling some of those definitely
34:54 · tell me which ones and i’ll circle them or maybe you can circle them or highlight them yeah i would say kind of down and unhappy uh those and how strong are those between zero and a hundred um so yeah at the end of the day i’d say it’s like in 85 or 90. okay then put 85 to 90 in the percent now column
35:28 · okay that’s that and and and see that’s important because um just a minor point you’re such a warm upbeat person yeah so people interacting with you wouldn’t know that you’re feeling that unhappy and so that that’s why why it’s great it’s great to measure because because that’s almost the most intense unhappiness a human being can have and how do you feel anxious worried
35:59 · panicky nervous or frightened um yes okay what all of them um yeah i mean if i if i like touch into worried maybe a little less worried a little more on the panicky side a little more on the nervous side a little less on the frightened side yeah but it’s i mean it’s all definitely there yeah anxious for sure like sure yeah and how strong does that
36:31 · get between uh 80 00 and 100 um i would say wow if i compare that to sadness i would i would have actually said that that’s a little bit more but it’s sure so maybe the the sadness is more like 80 to 85 and then the anxious is more like 85 to 90.
36:54 · um but at the end of the day when i’m feeling that feeling of like oh i didn’t get enough done then yeah there’s like the kind of the sadness that comes with that and then yeah there’s the the anxiety of like you know i i work for myself and i i and i’m also in charge of my own like showing up for my life and yeah there’s that sense of like oh if i don’t do this like no one’s gonna do this for me so
37:25 · um it’s all dependent on me yeah so all right that was a long-winded way of saying 85 to 90 as well great great now do you feel uh guilty remorseful bad or ashamed um yeah i would say probably mostly
37:56 · yeah i mean there’s definitely a like you you’re a capable person like you should be able to do this and figure this out um by the way i’m also writing down negative thoughts in the negative thought column and i just wrote down i should be able to to do this and figure figure this this out
38:21 · and when that thought goes through your mind how strongly do you believe it between zero and 100 um that i believe i should be able to figure this out yeah that’s a that’s a 100 yeah for sure so i’m going to put 100 in
38:39 · the percent now column the belief column and again you were about to tell me how guilty remorseful bad or ashamed do you have anything i’m starting to feel guilty that these are all so high but yeah i’d like i would just put that all at like in again in 85 to 90.
38:56 · okay i always feel like i’ve got you know the glimmer of like there there is always that piece of me that’s like it’s all going to be okay you’re fine so that that still lives in those moments sure but that’s that’s really intense the guilt and shame and feeling bad and then uh do you feel inferior worthless inadequate defective or incompetent yeah i do no wonder this is so horrible yeah um
39:24 · yeah i wouldn’t say worthless i would say it probably is it’s probably inadequate and defective not incompetent yeah so somewhere in there how strong are those um that’s more and probably like the 65 to 70 percent okay and do you feel lonely unloved and wanted rejected alone or abandoned
39:55 · that i do not feel you feel embarrassed foolish humiliated or self-conscious um i would give make that a 50.
40:11 · and which which feelings embarrassed foolish humiliated self-conscious well it’s only in my own eyes like i don’t think anyone else really i mean except now of course everyone who’s listening knows this is what neil goes through at the end of it of a day where he hasn’t gotten enough time
40:35 · it’ll be interesting to see what kind of feedback you get i think you’re going to be get an overwhelming number of fan responses we’ll see um yeah so i would say like embarrassed um not foolish not so much
40:54 · self-conscious but humiliated yeah that’s why it’s sort of in that okay i’d say 50. yeah 50. you feel hopeless discouraged pessimistic yes yeah definitely not despairing discouraged for sure that that’s the one that jumps out at me most and how strong is that um i would say that’s an 85.
41:22 · yeah right and then do you feel uh oh by the way i could have recorded this at my end i’m recording okay but then i could have sent you my recording so you would have a local higher quality oh no we’re good we’re good i think okay that’s great you’re coming through loud and clear oh good uh you feel frustrated stuck thwarted or defeated that’s probably like a 95
41:47 · yeah and all of those circles yeah yeah and do you feel angry mad resentful annoyed irritated upset or furious i’m annoyed and irritated yeah those are and those are probably in the
42:04 · seventy percent range right any other emotions that i i haven’t asked about so far we’ve got sad and down and unhappy we’ve got the whole anxiety cluster intense we’ve got the the the uh the guilty and shame clusters intense
42:23 · a little inadequate and effective and a little embarrassed and humiliated quite a bit actually and and and very discouraged 85 and and frustrated 95 and annoyed and irritated 70 anything else like overwhelmed yeah i mean if we had overwhelmed in there that would that would be super high um if it gets its own category yep um yeah i’d put that at 95 percent
42:52 · 95 great now um let me ask you what what some of your negative thoughts are when you’re right when you’re feeling this way or even you know at this moment like you said i should be able to to figure this out you believe that a hundred you also said no one will do this for me that’s probably not a distorted thought i jotted it down uh and then i’m not sure i can be that organized that’s a good negative thought
Negative Thoughts
43:24 · how much do you believe that one um i’m i would put that at
43:40 · 85 85 great and what are some more of your negative thoughts when you’re feeling down guilty anxious defective embarrassed yeah it would be things like
43:56 · um i’m i’m failing i’m failing yeah how much do you believe that one um in those moments that would be 90 95
44:18 · at 95. and i wrote that down i’m failing that’s an excellent one what what are some more negative thoughts things things that you tell yourself um oh good i’m seeing this goes on to another page i was like i’m looking oh oh he’s gonna run out of space too um
44:44 · time like there’s not enough time okay yeah or i’m like there’s no way that i can there there’s no way i will be able to do this is maybe there’s not enough time i mean there’s they kind of overlap with each other a little bit you don’t make that one thought there’s not enough time and no way i can can do all of this how’s that yeah
45:08 · and then how much do you believe that one um yeah like a hundred hundred percent sure and what are some more uh that that’s kind of the uh discouraged thought yeah and the frustrated thought um what what’s what’s the inadequate and effective thought um
45:34 · well the i’m not capable of doing this that’s that’s definitely the defective there’s um yep sure yeah let’s write that down number that’s thought number five i think yeah i’m not capable of of of doing this and then what is
45:57 · this defined as this is um okay so this could be two things this could be getting organized and executing on that yeah or this could be sort of the result like i’m not capable of the
46:17 · success or the goals that i want achieving my goals yeah okay great and then that’s a that’s a really well stated one and uh how much do you believe that between zero and a hundred i’m not capable of of getting organized i’m not capable of achieving my goals
46:43 · i mean in those moments it’s not how i live my day though i guess i do come in and out of that it’s so wild to just really kind of see that and in front of me that way um i would put that in an 85 or 90.
47:04 · yeah 90. by the way it’s like going in and out of a tramps like when you get in there it seems totally true yeah and then when you recover uh it’s such a radical shift it’s like you’re almost like you’re in a different reality yeah that makes sense to me uh any other negative thoughts we’ve got some some super ones here um let me just see if anything else like jumps out at me um
47:41 · ooh i don’t know this one feels kind of risky to say my father was right great okay and uh to tell us what what what that means um how you’re feeling right at this moment
48:09 · well um i i can hear his voice you know at a young age like kind of a costing me around like you gotta you gotta get like you gotta figure this out you gotta clean your room you gotta get organized you’ll never you’ll never succeed if you if you can’t figure this out so i hear that and um and on the flip side of it
48:39 · there’s a part of me that you know would love his blessing in terms of what i do with my life and um it might um
48:56 · it might shock people to learn that i don’t i definitely haven’t gotten it explicitly whether he does feel it and he’s just keeping it to himself that’s that’s possible but um [Music] you know my father his career he was a clinical psychologist and there just been a lot of times where i’ve wished that he
49:22 · could also see the value in in what i do and how i’m how i’m showing up in the world and how i’m contributing is he still alive yes or do you feel sad when you think about that or angry or yeah i mean we could do a whole nother mood log on that one sure um but yeah i mean for sure he it’s um it’s a source of
49:56 · sadness and anger that i’ve dealt with for most of my adult life and uh and i because he’s alive i hold out the hope that at some point there will be some sort of redemption in that way um but it hasn’t hasn’t happened yet yeah
50:25 · yeah there’s a lot about and and just to be clear i think i said this one other time when i talked about my dad on the show um you know i love him dearly and um and then there are things about him that i just don’t understand and that aren’t i i may never understand them you know there he’s there’s a level of um opaqueness in terms of how he lives his life and his choices and
50:58 · i guess i’m just like like i would just like a little bit more from him a little more engagement and support well i feel sad and really close to you based on what what you’re saying right now what you’ve said the entire time we’ve been we’ve been talking
51:22 · and uh you know i i can identify with it on a personal level too because i’ve been uh experiencing a little conflict with with my own son just just yesterday kind of kind of kind of erupted a little bit and we were both pretty angry with each other and uh feeling unappreciated and unloved and uh we were we were trying to
51:51 · talk it out but a little bit but uh there was such an explosive level of of anger like it was what wasn’t wasn’t working and he also loves loves me a lot and really admires you know what i’ve done but maybe doesn’t always feel like his dad appreciates him it’s very very similar to what you’re saying and i was a kind of a at wit’s end and uh
52:20 · very very anxious very you know feeling kind of ashamed too and and uh hurt and uh and he was sitting at the dining room table doing some work with a colleague on an impulse i know he likes physical touch and so i just
52:43 · went it went up and started massaging his shoulders and he indicated he was really loving that and and and then i just kind of leaned over on his back and and hugged him and then he got up and turned around you know gave me a wonderful hug it was really a beautiful moment and sometimes i think
53:03 · that out of you know intense anger if you hang in there in a relationship then really really beautiful things can kind of can happen but i’m sure it was so painful for him and has been painful for him to feel like his dad doesn’t really appreciate him and i’m so filled with admiration for for him and his uh his ethical qualities his idealism his incredible technical skills his um
53:33 · his love his is his worth work ethic but it’s it’s so easy for fathers and sons to to disconnect and sometimes never connect my dad was a lutheran minister and he was
53:49 · i just admired him when i was little and loved him so much and thought i’d be a minister and then we kind of drifted drifted apart and i began to to see things that uh really hurt me and and turned me off and and so we we never really did did reconcile i felt kind of judged and he was very rigid and you know if you don’t believe in jesus you’re going to go to hell and you know stuff that was seemed harsh
54:20 · to me but uh uh you know i i’m sure you’ll you’ll find a way to to connect with your your dad but i can i can certainly identify with how incredibly painful that is for you and you have achieved such a fantastic amount you know if a father could ever have a son to be proud of you’re you’re you’re this you’re the son and but i can see you’re hurting an awful lot thank you yeah
54:54 · i just want to say too like that um that that the space exists between you and your son to be able to do that and that you would recognize his you know his love language and um and show up in that way is such a gift and it was really moving to hear you describe that yeah it wa i felt really lucky that that that that happened um
55:26 · generally there’s a path to intimacy when you’re uh upset upset with people i have the philosophy the angrier more hurt you feel with someone the more fantastic potential for for a loving connection and reconciliation and and more but it’s like what what is the path that’s a conversation for for another day but uh my father was right when you say that you know how much believable is that
55:56 · [Laughter] um yeah so in those let me unplug my phone here sorry i just unplugged it yep so in those moments um my father was right that’s uh 85 or so 85 sure yeah
56:14 · um uh yeah i feel so so close to you right now and uh uh you know the i think many people are going to be touched by the the reality and the openness and vulnerability you’re you’re bringing to this and probably to to all of your podcasts any other negative thoughts um
56:48 · well the the only other one that really jumps out for me would be something like i’m going to be um i’ll be unhealthy um
57:05 · weak and broke like that that’s that’s what’s gonna happen oh great and then how much do you believe that one um that’s less so i would say that’s in like uh like the 60 65 665
57:27 · and so just to review your negative thoughts in reverse order i’m going to be unhealthy weak and broke my father was right about me i’m not capable of getting organized and achieving my goals there’s not enough time and no way i can do all of this all the things i have to do and all the things i want to do i’m failing i should be able to do this and figure this out and i’m i’m not really sure i i can be
58:00 · that organized organized enough to to do all the things on my plate and and then perhaps the uh no one will do this for me you had mentioned zero on lonely unloved and wanted rejected alone and abandoned but when you say no one will do this for me is that does that cause some feelings of being alone at all or
58:24 · i guess so i guess it’s true yeah there’s there’s that sense of like i’m in this by myself yeah yeah and then um when you have that that’s thought then how alone would you be feeling um yeah like an 80
58:48 · an 80. okay good and so you’re feeling overwhelmed irritated frustrated discouraged embarrassed alone inadequate guilty of shame maybe intensely anxious
59:06 · and very sad down down and unhappy so how how am i doing right now in terms of of getting you and underst standing how you’re thinking and how you’re feeling and and uh are you to what extent are
59:22 · you feeling a sense of compassion or acceptance if you were to grade me on empathy so far would you give me a a b a c a d i’d i’d give you an a on for empathy yeah i mean i feel like going through this
59:40 · helps me see myself for one thing and what’s happening in those moments and and the attention that you’re giving to the language that i’m using and and encouraging me to get specific
59:57 · and and telling me about your experience with your son and your dad and and really kind of pausing with me and that um yeah i feel i feel seen okay um we’ve kind of just from a brief teaching point of view we’ve done the t because we’ve done testing we know exactly how you’re feeling and we’ll do that again at the end of the session and we’ve done some empathy this has
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